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About Villager Trades...


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I'm sure as some players can attest to, villager trades are a bit broken. They devalue the worth of goods and products within minecraft. Is it reasonable that an emerald is worth 4-5 diamonds, but a diamond pickaxe is worth 10-11 emeralds? That would mean the diamond pickaxe is worth 40-55 diamonds by itself, when only 3 are used to craft it.


Also, this leaves the value of the emerald in doubt. Is it worth 5 diamonds? or is it only worth .3 diamonds?


What I've found with a little bit of searching is a plugin to modify villager trades: NBT Data. Wabuf mentioned that TCR is currently using this plugin, so no worries about installing it onto the server. When I asked Wabuf about these economy issues, he suggested that I should figure out a proper system of trades. I then realized I would be deciding the value of everything on the server by myself, which isn't fair. That is why I'm bringing the issue to the forums, to get as much feedback as possible.


I think we need to decide on values of coal, iron, gold, and diamond. That has always been the backbone of minecraft, especially coal and iron.


We could also look into the pricing on other servers, but keep in mind this 1.3 update is fresh and other servers may not have taken into account the lowered price of enchanting.


Enchanting has lowered the value of coal, lapis, diamond and redstone, since Fortune enchanted pickaxes cause massive drop rates, usually doubling what you mine. Therefore, I would have suggested the aforementioned four minerals be reduced slightly in value (or increase the value of iron and gold minerals), but I realized that would give new players a harder time if they don't immediately dive into the earth. Here, I'm not sure what could be done, but the prices need to be brought in line.


Once we decide on a proper conversion rate for backbone resources, I think we can repair the trades and keep the economy from crashing.


I'm offering this rough suggestion for a conversion rate:


6 - 1 coal -> iron ingot


4 - 1 iron -> gold ingot


4 - 1 gold -> diamond


That means a stack and a half of coal = 1 diamond. Honestly, I'm not an economist, I just looked at the rarity charts for ores and gave an estimate based on that and value of use.


I am strongly encouraging everyone to remain objective about the value of minerals, and not be influenced by what you currently have in stock.


I look forward to everyone's feedback on this issue. If we decide on a backbone now, it'll make conversion to emerald very easy. From there we can decide prices for the rest of the goods.


Whether we like it or not, villagers have introduced a structure of economy into minecraft. We could simply get rid of villager trades with NBT data (make everything emerald for emerald), but I feel it would add more depth to multiplayer if we keep it and perhaps introduce more interesting trades. Trades add use to the emerald and value to it. As for everythings value in CRB, I think everyone can decide that for themselves (as part of the fun).


Thanks for reading.

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I had posted this in Minecraft Beta 1.2, back when our currency was RS:

Posted Image

I even had a

showing how to make the conversion tool using Falsebook.


Not sure if this will help with anything, but I had spent a long time researching true block values to come to a conclusion on the pricing. If anything, it's proven data to reference--because after all, everyone said that was their favorite economy that TCR had ever hosted.


EDIT: Something else I made, LOL: Splash Potion Pricing

Oh, and a 'Plan B': Disable the Emerald Item and Block via WorldGuard.

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But I love the emerald block... :cry:


Fun aside, I remember that pricing system. I do like the conversion rates. I realise that I overvalued gold a bit; two for one does seem more realistic. And the gold to diamond ratios also seem reasonable, since diamonds have greater value. It's just...these ratios don't match up with the power of enchanting. That's why I put more value into iron and gold, since you can only get those 1 at a time.

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Good point and this had stacks taken into account. People knew that they would receive a stack and 36 Redstone for a Diamond. I believe the video demonstrates this. You are half-correct about it being fundamentally broken, as Brink explained:

... It's just...these ratios don't match up with the power of enchanting. ...

Enchanting wasn't around in the 1.2 Beta. That alone throws a wrench into things. This is just a point of reference and something to stand on in the confusion we're currently working through. xD
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In my mind, the twisted and sick mess that it is, the potential for abuse if a system isn't properly thought through is massive.

Consider this when making a system that works:

Myself and Jonas are probably the player with the most items in stock, and at this point in time we are sitting on over 4 stacks of lapis blocks, almost 2 stacks of iron blocks, almost 1 stack of gold blocks, about 25 emerald blocks, over 3 double chests of redstone, and over 2 double chests of coal, also we just broke 100 diamond blocks, yay us.

Anyway, my few points are these:

Anything that will be used as currency, or to affect currency should NOT be renewable, so scratch emeralds completely off the list.


If the system isn't finely tuned before it comes in use, there will be people, like myself and Jonas who will just sell all our coal/redstone for the sake of messing with the economy and becoming possibly the richest players on the server.


If a plug-in will be used for the economy, and it seems it will be just that, then there must be a way to keep money entering and leaving the economy, and to that extent make sure that one player can't simply buy the entire market, which is very much possible considered the deep coffers of me and Jonas.


My final point-thing, I will try to make is that plug-ins are a really bad way to store something as important as wealth if it isn't backed up a lot, and I mean A LOT.

I am sure Wabuf remembers the time me and Jonas lagged the server to death by just selling things to the admin shop.

But I will almost promise that this won't happen since we will try to use the CRB system as little as possible for the reason of it potentially failing like it did back then, causing everything to be wiped.

At least you can't lose diamond blocks to a plug in failing.

Color it a rant if you want, but that, I think, is my opinion of the economy and possibly also how I think it should work.

Am so tired I lost track of my thoughts a few times along the post, so be nice to a sleepy guy ._.

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If the system isn't finely tuned before it comes in use, there will be people, like myself and Jonas who will just sell all our coal/redstone for the sake of messing with the economy and becoming possibly the richest players on the server.

All fixed! I have temporarily negated your ability to use the ChestShop and iConomy plugins--simple as that.

If you're going to be critical to the point of insult, please bitch somewhere else. What you confessed you would most likely do is absolute grief. Though intellectual in nature, it ruins others' experiences and I cannot have it.


Sleepy guy or not, you're being unreasonable and cannot be trusted to participate in the economy. I don't do what's best for the single person anymore; I do what's best for the community.

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Why do you keep attacking me like this?

It really does feel like a personal insult.

And what I confessed to was not grief, it would be using the tools you set up to make money, just as any other would.

The difference being that we actually have enough resources to completely topple the economy is a fault that lies in the economy itself.

Sorry if my USUAL critical sense, and with that also my sense of humor, offended you, but I was merely voicing the possibility so that you may be prepared for it by shielding, and protecting the economy, by making sure that money is constantly flowing, and not by simply eliminating a participant in the economy.

The fact that you consider that "bitching" is to some degree understandable, if the system was already in place, and exploitable.

What I saw, and I still see it as was constructive criticism.

Again, before I get too loud and noisy, I will say that I am truly sorry that you missed my point.

I should have made myself clearer.

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While having an economy is great, but personally I don't think we need a plugin or anything else like that to simulate a economy. Having said that, I do think it's necessary to have a shop that sells unobtainable items.


Before currency, there was the trade and barter system. The system worked because it was based on every individual's sense of value, which in the case of Minecraft, might be better/more useful. The people who want to obtain other items are usually the "poorest" or in this case the people who don't play as often and as much. The people willing to trade are absolutely cool with the items they are getting in return.


In the case of Jonas and lars, they are already filthy rich in this sense of economy, so they control the server's cash flow. Since they have so much stuff and can sell them at really low prices, in that sense, "it messes up the economy". In actuality, it doesn't do crap. With prices completely dropped to the floor, other players have the ability to buy cheap goods if Jonas and Lars are willing to sell cheaply. Other players's shops will probably not thrive, but those are the players who play the least.


More skilled playing = more rewards. Why should we deny that? That is capitalism. Of course, it's dickish to ruin everyone's experience, but at the same time, most people will return to the trade system. That's why I say we don't disable villagers trading and let Jonas and Lars do whatever they want.


The downsides to trading are obvious being that if the players aren't on and you want a certain thing, but you can't get it. But it's the same as real life. You go shopping at 3 AM, most likely there won't be any shop open. If you really need it desperately, you could probably go get it yourself. If it's REALLY a hassle, make a forum post about it, set up a time/drop point and party hard.


Be creative, that's what Minecraft is all about.

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You're all missing the 'temporarily' in my previous statement. Temporary so I can finish setting up the economy.

Guess what: I never said the economy was set up! In fact, all this discussion and many others have been regarding the initialization of the economy. The plugin's installed and that's all. Freezing a few players' accounts to save an entire economy is not 'pretty crappy' at all. It's temporary and fail safe.


Mythil has a point, there will always be the mega-rich. But they're exploiting a feature now, that later may not be available to exploit thus making it unfair for future participants in the economy.


I'm planning on a basic, gradual stimulus: Limited AdminShops. Like the purchase and sale of the most basic items allowing fair participation of any player at any point in their economic status. A player's economical goals are met when they're making enough money off of something that they are able to support 100% of their survival needs and wants (i.e. builds). Hashing away at one thing relentlessly just to throw off a system is despicable.

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I like the game Chess. In Chess, you have to think many moves ahead.

Your next move, had I not protected those chests: You would have dispersed those valuables to the economy by hand and destroyed the need to craft in a game called Minecraft.


Just a temporary safe-guard. If you choose to take it personally, please know it is in the interest of many.

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Sorry, but why would I convert my valuables to CRBs when I know how unstable they are? It would be like setting fire to my own... Diamonds, figuratively, mind.


Also, why would I give my valuables away, the CRB, in my mind, has no value, if I was going to take over the market, it would be to either prove that, or enforce another currency sytem, like redstone.


But I still don't understand why our items had to be removed, temporarily, but still, from the economy, when you could "just" disallow our access to the economy in the first place.

Note the double " around the word "Just", meaning it probably is harder than it seems.


Regardless, my point still stands, and I would love to hear your take and reasoning on this.

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I'm going to say that I'm with Lars with this one and propse a truce.


We remove the iConomy accounts from Lars and Jonas while their resources and mining area gets freed up. How does that sound? Therefore Lars and Jonas can still play without wreaking havoc on everything.

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As interesting as this discussion is, I would like people stay focused on the ultimate purpose of this thread: To fix villager trades. What lars and/or jonas and/or others do should probably belong in a different thread. No hard feelings people.


Beyond that, I'll try to develop a "relative value" fix to villager trades. That way, emerald values will have some sort of consistency, instead of these insane conversion rates. This is only a small step: creating consistency in emerald value will help when an economy is eventually created. "Help" as in we can simply adjust pricing to match the final value of the emerald. I plan on having something within a day or two.

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Personally, I don't think we have to change villager trades. There will never be consistancy since the economy of the server is affected by the emeralds, which are dug up, and uncontrolled by the government we don't have. That being said, one guy in a green hills biome could be the richest mo fo in the world because he digs the most emeralds.

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That's not what I meant. What I meant was to change the trades to match a relative value of emerald. The emerald could be worth anything. All I want is to balance the trades so that they are consistent. Lets say we randomly decide 5 emeralds are a diamond. Therefore, we set all the trades to match this. Then, when a real value of a conversion appears, we adjust the trades to match. This would not be something to implement immediately, just an intermediate until some sort of price for an emerald stabilizes, no matter what sort of economy we have.

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In that case, the values of it are different for everyone. For me, Emerald is as rare as Diamond, since I haven't got a single Emerald yet. For you, you possibly already have a billion, I have no idea. How are we to set a relative value then?


We can't do it by rarity of the ores since the spawn rate is different between biomes. Are you suggesting that we just set a value to things in Emeralds?

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After thinking about the matter, I realize that we do need an economy first, a stable one, until villager trades can be fixed.


I guess I was looking at the tip of the iceberg for the whole thing.


Perhaps we should lock down villager trades until some measure of value is established for goods.

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